Lee, while you are a humble and devoted servant I have to find some humiliating and strenuous work for you. Could you polish my shoes, dust my coat, and carry my luggage for me?

Your Ostentatious, Wealthy, and Purse-proud, Master.

Jason Taylor

My dearest Mrs. M,

I beg you to please accept my most humble and sincere apologies for the lateness of my response to your last communication. While I was away I found myself quite unable to make any but the briefest communications, and certainly your inquiry is deserving of a more complete and thoughtful response in place of the merely hurried and, I fear, rather insulting brief missive which my circumstances would have permitted. I am delighted to now be able to provide to you a longer letter.

I would be quite remiss if I did not mention my continuing concern for the health of both you and your husband. I am certainly not wanting to breach any propriety by making request for information of such a private nature, by any means; I simply wish to convey to you both my heartfelt desire for the most rapid of recoveries for both of you.

It is of no means an excuse for the boorishness of this late reply to you, but I myself suffered somewhat while away. Indeed, I was possessed with quite a severe coughing fit upon reading "A woman, especially, if she have the misfortune of knowing any thing, should conceal it as well as she can." This sentence, you may recall, was not spoken by an insensible and brutish character such as Mr. Thorpe, but is given to us by the authoress herself. It was in reflecting upon this, combined with reflections upon several women of my acquaintance, yourself included, who individually and collectively know many things, who appear to make no effort to conceal their knowledge, and some of these women even provide for themselves by making public display of what they know, and yet are most devoted to the writings of Miss Austen, that I was seized by laughter which quickly gave way to choking and wheezing of the most intense nature. Let me hasten to assure you that after a brief rest I was able to make full recovery, and I am now physically quite well.

But I fear I have for too long kept from you my answer to the question you expressed in your last letter. I must say I found the fifth chapter of Northanger Abbey to be most interesting indeed. However, I should first express my mortification that you might ever feel any distress on your part for speaking too much of it, as you yourself stated. Reading that chapter was in no way whatsoever anti-climactic for me; quite the contrary, I found that your prior references to it made it all the more intriguing. I hope you will believe me when I say that your intumations toward it were indeed most helpful.

Yet again I see I have diverged from the object of your interest, and again I apologize. I would infer from your prior commentary that your interest in this fifth chapter is primarily about the extended address the authoress makes directly to the reader. I admit that I was rather taken aback by this quite forceful and direct style. I would have expected it to appear as a discourse between two characters such as that which later occurs between Miss Morland and Mr. Tilney, rather than in this bold and unabashed style. Consider the indirect approach taken by Mr. Bradbury in his Fahrenheit 451 novel, which avoids a direct lecture but achieves the same result. Of course, I recognize that Miss Austen does not intend to write an entire work on this topic, but rather to make a parenthetical comment that in a non-fiction work might appear as a footnote. Even so, the point is forcefully made, just as when a playwright has an actor speak not to other actors on stage but instead directly to the audience.

As to the substance of this section, I would say it is an argument not buttressed by evidence in its favor, but is instead an emotional appeal. Please note Miss Austen's use of superlatives, as in "greatest", "happiest", "liveliest", etc. She does not attempt to support these exclamations, but leaves it to her readers to come to agreement with her. Thus I must conclude that it is not her purpose to sway anyone possessed with an opposite opinion, but rather she wishes to convince those who otherwise might not have deeply considered the issue, but who are easily persuaded. And of course those people would be readers already five chapters into Northanger Abbey, itself a novel after all, so one would reasonably expect them to assent to the terms.

For my own opinion on the matter, I would respectfully disagree with the authoress that novels are greater in substance than are works of non-fiction. I would, however, agree with her that novels are not mere trifles; many weighty matters have been conveyed by dialogue that could never have been conveyed by monologue. I am quite willing to grant anyone a defense of their craft as important and relevant, but I am not of a mind to permit an author to denigrate the work of other authors as a means of establishing their own work. So I am willing to grant Miss Austen her status alongside, say, her contemporaries who composed The Federalist Papers, yet I am altogether unwilling to allow her to claim superiority over them.

I would be delighted to discuss this matter at greater length with you, but I see the hour is growing quite late and my day is quite full. I therefore beg your forgiveness for my discourtesy in shortening this missive to such an unnatural length, and I hope the bitterness of that will be reduced by the implied sweetness of my promise to further our conversation in such a time and a manner as may be most pleasing to you.

I remain your most humble and devoted servant,

-LeeQuod

Lee, how goes Gale Abby's North Anger at being forced to vacation in the South?

Dear Mr. Quod,

Any comments on Chapter 5, Literary Rivalry and Anger in the North Abbey?

Or did I speak of it too much and thereby make it anti-climactic for you? :{ I certainly hope that's not the case.

Sincerely,
Mrs. M

Lee, there was no publishing world before printing so Arabic numerals existed before there was a "publishing world".

.
…for any delinquency on our friend, Lee’s, part. You see, I reacted with typical stream-of-consciousness predictability when recently I ran across a passage in Austen reminiscent and evocative of visceral responses some of us have when reading Romans 9-11 through the lens of Reformed theology: The passage in question ---

“Catherine's blood ran cold with the horrid suggestions which naturally sprang from these words. Could it be possible? Could…[F]ather—? And yet how many were the examples to justify even the blackest suspicions!” – Northanger Abbey, Chapter 23

It seemed to me – and Lee, being the deferent gentleman that he is, obligingly agreed – that a brief digression into “the eternal decrees” might be justifiable on the arguable grounds that theology should come before literature (and science; but that’s another thread). Subsequently, I gave him a book on Romans that he’s been giving priority over Jane.

I most humbly implore your pardon, but speed-reader that he is, I see that Lee is now back on track; and I am sure your patience will be abundantly rewarded with copious additional stimulating commentary from our mutual friend.

Dear Mrs. M,

Ivy - I'm in Chapter Ivy. Oh, wait - "IV"; they must mean "Four". ;-)

(Maybe Jason knows when Arabic numerals were introduced into the publishing world.)

I was a bit chagrined myself, my dear, seeing a physical description of Miss Morland on the very first page.

I'll savor Chapter Vee this evening.

I'm beginning to get the sense that Austen heroines have up-close-and-personal experience with loveless and intolerable marriages - usually not in their own families (although the women's parents do not seem to be emotionally close), but nearby enough to see what they would not want. There are also boring marriages (which these intelligent women seem to abhor) and marriages of poverty (ditto). On the other hand, being single and female in that era seems to be worse. The trifecta is to find a man who is wealthy, intellectually gifted, and deeply in love with them.

This makes me wonder if intelligent, sensitive, economically aware women are particularly attracted to these stories. Does Jane Austen have any shallow fans? Or does Harlequin have a lock on that market?

Dear Mr. Quod,

How are you getting on with Miss Moreland? Have you arrived at Chapter 5 yet? ;)

Regarding our earlier conversation about P&P, what I was unsuccessfully trying to get at was Elizabeth's discomfort with everyone saying, "But I thought you hated him?" It's best captured after Mr. Darcy has been in to see her father:

"Her father was walking about the room, looking grave and anxious. 'Lizzy,' said he, 'what are you doing? Are you out of your senses, to be accepting this man? Have not you always hated him?'

How earnestly did she then wish that her former opinions had been more reasonable, her expressions more moderate! It would have spared her from explanations and professions which it was exceedingly awkward to give; but they were now necessary, and she assured him with some confusion, of her attachment to Mr. Darcy." (Chapter 59)

I find Lizzy's discomfort at everyone's shock when told of her engagement to Mr. Darcy to be beautiful irony and it always gives me a chuckle. I laugh in sympathetic embarrassment, as I have had to eat humble pie often enough in my own life... and I'm probably not done yet...={. I also enjoy that Jane Austen holds even her favorite heroine accountable for her previous bad behavior.

It's interesting you ask that, Ellen, because this whole conversation got me thinking about how I would rank Austen's books. I came up with this (going from favorite to least favorite):

Pride & Prejudice
Persuasion
Sense & Sensibility
Emma
Northanger Abbey
Mansfield Park

(Oh, and I have heard an audio version of the unfinished "Lady Susan," which was delightful. Harriet Walter did a magnificent job reading it.)

Gina, I think that's part of my reason for recommending Northanger Abbey next. I think Catherine Moreland and Henry Tilney are better introduced to a reader before they read Jane Austen's more polished works. I suspect Northanger Abbey is better appreciated for itself when it has less comparison in a reader's mind to JA's other works.

And where to put Mansfield Park in the order? I read Emma first and then Mansfield Park. By the end of MP I wanted to shake it to see if I missed something and perhaps it would fall out if shaken hard enough. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty in there - however typical romance is not.

"I can read this as either 'Holy coincidence, Batman!' - a pop-culture reference - or as '[What a ] holy coincidence [which must have been crafted by God]!'"

You're good, LQ. It was, in fact, both. :-)

NA isn't up there with my very favorite Austens, but Ellen gives strong reasons for recommending it. And the satire IS very good.

"Holy coincidence!"??!? Ah, G, you use ambiguity so brilliantly! I can read this as either "Holy coincidence, Batman!" - a pop-culture reference - or as "[What a ] holy coincidence [which must have been crafted by God]!"

Ellen, I'd summarize the other characters' reactions as "Waitaminit - I thought you hated him!" followed immediately by "Waitanotherminit - he's rich, you're related to me, and I can do the math!" The only real exception, with more of Elizabeth's welfare at heart, seemed to be Jane - but then, she was also better informed than the others.

I'll note in passing that if I had ever pulled a "let's get a reading on her feelings" stunt like Mr. Darcy did, using Lady Catherine to put Lizzy on the spot, well, I would certainly not be alive today.

And I'm delighted that there's disagreement over which book is next. I'll let y'all vote over whether it should be S&S, Persuasion, Northanger Abbey,... and while the results are being tallied, I'll get back to "Bring Her Down" and the J. Budziszewski works I recently got (prior, in fact, to Chuck's recommendation of them here: http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/17496 ).

Lee, glad you enjoyed Pride and Prejudice and I enjoyed your comments. I'd love your reaction to the characters' reactions to Lizzy's engagement to Mr. Darcy.

I don't have time to write more, but I would actually vote for _Northanger Abbey_ as your next Jane Austen novel. The reason? Because a primary theme of NA is the novel itself, novel reading, and how fiction depicts and influences life. See my earlier post regarding JA's famous defense of the novel in chapter 5 of NA. It's one of the earliest novels Jane Austen finished even though it was published posthumously.

Also, Catherine Moreland, the heroine, is amazingly naive and spends time in Bath, as does Anne Elliot, who is older and no longer naive, in _Persuasion_. I think reading Persuasion after NA makes for excellent compare and contrast opportunities. The character John Thorpe in NA is one that I love to hate. I love Jane Austen's depiction of him. However, I'd best =x.

Oh look, I've spent more time on this post than I meant to. Has _Jane Austen ruined my life_? I actually haven't read that one yet.

Holy coincidence! I didn't even realize that Chuck was going to talk about Austen in today's commentary.

http://www.breakpoint.org/bpcommentaries/entry/13/17502

I was going to recommend that "Persuasion" be next on Lee's list, but based on this, perhaps he'd prefer to try "Sense and Sensibility" next!

Bravo, LeeQuod! The Austenites of the board are all so proud of you!

If I may clarify one minor point: It was Jane Austen herself, not Elizabeth, whom Lori described as "the good Christian girl." But I loved hearing your thoughts on how piety is portrayed in different places and times. Growing up on classics the way I did, I got all kinds of fascinating glimpses of different ways the Christian faith has been practiced through the years (in terms of outward practices, that is, not essentials). From my admittedly subjective point of view, I believe it provided me with a healthy dose of perspective. Reading theology gives one a grasp of the fundamentals, but reading novels shows the way those fundamentals played out in ordinary people's lives.

I finished it. (The last 10 pages were all ads - booyah!)

And, I re-read Gina's original Her.meneutics piece. She said Austen's for everyone - in particular, men who hadn't read her.

So the biggest issue is whether or not Austen was for me. Did I enjoy reading the very novel Gina put in the subtitle of her article? Or, was my teasing of Ellen actually based on an element of truth? Did I like it? Aaaaaaand, the truth is...

I did.

I started by disliking all these bored rich people who only worried about who would party where and when, and who would marry whom. Many of the men were aloof, and many of the women were downright shallow and silly. And I found out, to my surprise, that Elizabeth didn't like them either. She didn't like them so much, in fact, that she almost lost the man she loved. Yet, she deeply loved her sister, loved her father even though he was aloof and exhibited favoritism. And in the end, she overcame her prejudice toward those around her - without losing her feisty humor.

I discovered that Mr. Darcy, who seemed so aloof and uncaring, was actually sensitive. He was silent around Lizzy not because he was proud, but because he was smitten. And he put his money toward a noble purpose, covering it up and enduring unjust treatment to spare others any embarrassment.

So this definitely wasn't chicklit.

To be honest, I got turned off by seeing the movies, which do in fact tend toward chick lit, and by women slobbering over how dreamy Mr. Darcy is. But the difference between P&P and a romance novel is, in fact, vast. The characters, particularly the heroine, have deep flaws that heighten the drama and provide plot twists. Minor characters are broadly drawn, but not unrealistically so. And people, particularly the heroine, have no problem letting someone have it, verbally - such as Lizzy v. Lady Catherine.

So I was quite surprised. I was also surprised by Lori Smith's description of the typical heroine as "the good Christian girl". With that description in mind, I would expect her to go to prayer and/or seek out the parson when trouble strikes. But the parsons seem to be primarily hirelings of wealthy patrons. Puzzling, though, is the mention of going to church without any mention of prayer or the Scriptures. That's caused me to ponder what behaviors in a fictional character would indicate piety, for me, and how I expect those behaviors to be constant across times and cultures. Maybe I need to think more about my own prejudices.

So I'm hooked. I'll read more Austen. Gina has won. So has Ellen. But, so have I.

I'm even happy to discuss this more.

When you think about it, the Inferno's sentiments were rather unChristian in that regard. Rather like me writing a book in which Obama is in Hell.

Of course Renaissance Italian politics was rather more partial to daggers and poisons then our own, so at least it was often a fairly realistic expectation even if an uncharitable one.

Lee,

Wow! Your instructor didn't teach on the political aspects of Dante's Divine Comedy?? I find that amazing. However, I myself could not tell you the author of the translation I read. *blush* And I can't go look, because I sold almost all of my books to Powell's as they wouldn't all fit on our 34' sailboat. :( I was surprised that my Dante books were harder to sell than my Shakespeare; in fact they were the hardest books to pass across the counter. I always wanted to read the Dante again, and I had liked the translation with English on one page and the Italian on the facing page. Shakespeare is available in every large library. And now I have his complete works on my Kindle.

Has Lady Catherine made another appearance in Lizzy's life? Definitely one of my favorite scenes in P&P.

I read John Ciardi's translation of Inferno while in college, Ellen. It was the first time I ever saw a vulgarity in a translation of a classic foreign language work. It's a pity, since Ciardi's effort of transforming a poem in Italian into a poem in English is sheer genius. I was amused to learn, some years later, that the tormented characters were actually politicians whom Dante knew. So maybe the journalists exposed by Gina in "Bring Her Down" had secret aspirations of lasting literary greatness. Hmpf.

I'm heading back to P&P to finish it. Events are building toward a dramatic conclusion. Will Lizzy marry for love, or for money??!? Oh, wait - she could get both, I think... ;-)

And Jane Austen, having fond ties to the navy, would know perfectly well what Jolly Jack Tar did for entertainment when arriving in port. She simply would have felt no reason to think about it much.